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Rules Change Request Period is open for 2013 rules
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TOPIC: Rules Change Request Period is open for 2013 rules

Re: Rules Change Request Period is open for 2013 rules 12 years ago #14455

  • cbuzzetti
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Wow could not disagree more!

This is a low cost option for the early cars. It is a significant savings over the Konis.

Are they better? Who knows? Lots of guys will say no way, others will say they are.

And I am not sure that they will not fit the late cars. I think it has to do with what shocks came from the factory on a particular car.

Can anyone confirm or deny this info? With facts of course, not opinions.

Foxx I am picking up David Hirschs car in December. Will you be doing the crossover race with Norcal at Laguna next year?
2018 NASA 944Spec National Champ
2018 NASA ST5 P2 944 Nationals COTA
2017 NASA 944Spec WSC P3
2016 NASA PTD-944 WSC P2
2015 NASA GTS1 Western Champion
2014 NASA 944Spec Western Champion
2013 NASA 944Spec So-Cal Regional Champion
2013 NASA 944Spec National P3
2010 NASA GTS-1 National Champion
2010 NASA 944Spec National P3
2010 NASA So-Cal 944Spec Regional Champion
2009 NASA 944Spec National Champion

Re: Rules Change Request Period is open for 2013 rules 12 years ago #14469

  • JB3
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re: Koni vs Bils

Big Dog wrote:
Is it time to remove the option for Bilstein shocks? As far as I know, they can not be used with the 85.5 and later suspension as those suspensions do not have a way to hold Bilstein's into the strut so they are not even an option for those guys.

Some believe they are better than the Koni's so there is a perception of "better/worse" that will drive costs if we continue to allow them.

By specing the Koni's everyone will be "equal" in the shock area. I believe it was discussed a year or so ago about changing that. Is this the time? I would think it is. Perhaps, for those that have them, as of today, they can use them for the next year, except at Nationals. Anyone with them could notify their regional director for a waiver to use them for regional races this year so they can be used up.


Nah. Leave it be. Out here Koni's are preferred so who knows?! FWIW, neither is quite enough for our spring rates and would not be on my short list for a budget build except for Spec.
'JB'

Re: Rules Change Request Period is open for 2013 rules 12 years ago #14476

  • Big Dog
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As I understand it, the struts are different on late cars. The early cars have a large nut at the top of the strut that is removed, a new shock dropped in, nut back on and finished.

The late struts do not have such a nut. They were not designed, by Porsche, to be rebuilt, only replaced for big money. Koni makes a special shock that has a threaded hole in the bottom. They supply bolts to put in through a new hole in the bottom of the original strut to hold them in.

My issue is the Bilstein's are ONLY available to early cars. I see no reason to allow them when they only are available for some of the cars when Koni makes shocks for all of our cars. I know that we require ABS brakes, that came stock on the 88's, to be removed because they are not available to early cars. I guess I do not see any logical reason to continue to allow a shock that is not an option to all of our cars when we have an alternative that makes this area "equal".
Jim Foxx

Re: Rules Change Request Period is open for 2013 rules 12 years ago #14477

  • Big Dog
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Mr. B.

Laguna is a certainty. All of the Nor Cal guys will be there. Of course, we will leave you "visitors" some paddock space in Monterey.

As for TRASH TALK, Nor Cal has a designated trash talker. I am sure Ron will step into the discussion, as it develops.

Big Dog
Jim Foxx

Re: Rules Change Request Period is open for 2013 rules 12 years ago #14489

  • Big Dog
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Another two suggestions, in the spirit of "equal" racing.

As was suggested before, and rejected out of hand I might add, the 87-88 suspension REQUIRES the use of the late offset phone dial wheels. As has been documented, they are much heavier than cookie cutters. This gives a substantial penalty to these late cars.

One argument made was that the suspension of these cars is better than the early cars. Yes, that is true but the difference is very small, enough so as not to notice it? The difference is in the longer arm leading to slightly less camber loss during suspension movement. Remember, the track width is the same for both suspensions.

The dismissive answer, before, was something like - those cars have better suspension and (for the 88's anyway) HC engines so it all equals out. Another was - change out the suspension. Changing out the suspension is an expensive proposition for those that have the late one. Remember, the same argument could be made about the HC engine but we are removing that as an unequal component with the dyno cap and I see a similar issue here.

I would submit that the better suspension is much less than the affect of the heavy wheels that are part of the rotating mass. I have seen estimates that it equates to as much as 80 pounds of ballast in a car. If there is any openness to actually considering this inequality in the rules, I can get some engineering opinions on what advantage the longer suspension gives versus the disadvantage the heavy wheels impose to come up with a proposal for a rules change to remove this unequal area.

There is certainly precedent for making such an adjustment. 88's are required to remove ABS braking to make the cars "more equal" and now we are eliminating any advantage a HC engine might have given. This area, and the aero advantage of the 924, seem to be the biggest areas left to try to equalize.

As for the aero advantage of the 924, perhaps the rules should require that they maintain the track width that was stock on those cars. I believe they can widen their cars from their stock width to the 944 width if they want/can. Why should they have the aero advantage AND get a track width improvement too?

There has certainly been discussion on the combination of car, suspension, wheels, engine that might be the "best" combination in this class. We should diminish any differences, as much as practical if we are going to be consistent with our philosophy of "equal racing".

Those are my thoughts on how to make our class more "equal" going forward. There might be others that can suggest additional "equalizing" rules and, in my opinion, they should be considered for the betterment of the class going forward and not simply dismissed out of hand.

Big Dog
Jim Foxx

Re: Rules Change Request Period is open for 2013 rules 12 years ago #14493

  • cbuzzetti
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To the Honorable Mr. Foxx, I will be happy to handicap myself with your car. I have driven it many times and can truly say that it is a dog!
All you need to do is send me $2,000 and I will trade with you. Be sure all the body work is done first though!

Signed the disreputable Mr. Buzzetti
2018 NASA 944Spec National Champ
2018 NASA ST5 P2 944 Nationals COTA
2017 NASA 944Spec WSC P3
2016 NASA PTD-944 WSC P2
2015 NASA GTS1 Western Champion
2014 NASA 944Spec Western Champion
2013 NASA 944Spec So-Cal Regional Champion
2013 NASA 944Spec National P3
2010 NASA GTS-1 National Champion
2010 NASA 944Spec National P3
2010 NASA So-Cal 944Spec Regional Champion
2009 NASA 944Spec National Champion
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