Joe, when I looked at the potential for a fuel rail rupture, which happens with our fuel rails, it appeared that there is lots of potential for fuel to run to the left side of the cam tower and pool around the spark plug recesses. In fact, I have seen the results of a ruptured fuel rail do exactly that and burn the wiring on that side of the engine. (We did get the car repaired so it could run the following day. )

For that reason, I put a second nozzle on that side of the fuel rail. Something to think about.

Charlie, I've never heard anyone else in the class say the same things about tech scutinizing of the seat mounting. Good on you. I agree 100% as I've seen some absolutely scary seat mounting!
BTW, after the crash/fire at Nationals, I sat down and wrote 2 pages of notes, based on my experiences/lessons, that will eventually become an article entitled "HOW TO CRASH WELL."
But, let's talk about seats.
First, the chassis under the seat has to be strong enough to hold the seat system and driver in place. The 83-85.1 chassis have a single layer of sheet metal for the rear mounts. I've seen many floors that are cracked, allowing the seat system to flex. In some early cars, we've welded in an additional "saddle" and attached it to the sill and tunnel. The 85.2-88 cars have an additional subframe welded to the floor and the stock hardware was upgraded from four 6mm bolts, to six 8mm bolts. But let's go beyond that.
At CRE, we use sliders because of the big halo feature at the top of many state of the art composite racing shells (seats). You need to slide the seat back to get out. These seats are NOT supposed to be used with a seat back brace, which would stop the seat from flexing and absorbing crash energy. The racing sliders (seat rails) that we use look very similar to stock sliders but they're thicker, stronger and feature a double locking system, i.e., the release handle in front goes directly to individual locking teeth on each side. Stock sliders have one side connected with a small rod. It's important to get the sliders installed not only flat, but 100% parallel. If the front and back mounting points are different heights, the sliders will bow when the seat is tightened down. If they aren't parallel or they're bowed, the sliders will bind. In a crash they'll get worse possibly preventing the seat from sliding at all.
We also mount seats per FIA specs. Go to the FIA website, go to "Sporting Codes" , go to Appendix J. They specify use of hardened hardware (10.9) in certain locations and minimum-sized backing plates (40 square CM), etc. If it's good enough for crashing rally cars, it's our hope that it will give our customers the best chance at escaping injury.
FIA approved racing seats have standardized bolt spacing of 290mm on their sides. This is nice because it means you can use different brands of brackets on different seats, which is sometimes needed to make seats install well. The FIA wants you to use the same brand of seat, brackets, and sliders, but they all have to pass the same test. All FIA brackets are minimum 3mm steel or 5mm aluminum. Even so, we still use washers to help spread the load on the head of the side bolts (10.9 hardness) going into the brackets.
Anti sub belts should be mounted BEHIND the seat to help prevent any forward movement of the driver in the seat. It also keeps the lap belt from moving up under your ribcage in a crash. The bracket should be spaced up off the floor to keep the webbing from being crushed or grinding against the floor.
Regardless of what battery kill switch system you have inside the car for you to use, an exterior switch should be installed on the DRIVER'S side of the car. This is the first thing corner workers are going to go for and you don't want them to have to run back around from the passenger side of the car WHEN YOU'RE ON FIRE! Mark it clearly.

tcomeau wrote:


Tim,
I commend you and others for thinking about your safety in racing. You bring up some good points, but I cannot agree with you on the above statement on Sub Belt placement. Read the instuction sheets from the manufacturers or the SFI on harness mounting locations. Quoting FIA-rated Schroth instructions:

PROFI 5-POINT MODELS
Anti-submarining strap routing in any seating position must follow the tangential touching of the occupant’s chest and groin. Such routing is a compromise to help reducing the risk of crotch and groin injuries during a frontal impact. 5-point racing harnesses are less safe, proven by computer simulation, sled testing and in real world accidents. Therefore SCHROTH strongly recommends the use of 6-point racing harnesses only.
PROFI 6-POINT AND HYBRID MODELS
Anti-submarining strap routing shall be vertical down from the groin, preferably approximately 20° back.
Anchor points shall be approximately 100 mm [4”] lateral apart from each other. In case of a low seating position (e.g. in open wheel race cars), this separation may be reduced since the anchor points are closer to the thighs.

Quoting Simpson instructions:

5-Point Anti-Submarine Belt should be anchored on or slightly behind the Chest Line. 6-Point Anti-Submarine Belt should be anchored at an angle of 20 degrees behind the Chest Line as measured from the intersection of the Chest Line and the lap belt buckle.

Also, you are correct that you do not want to pinch the belts by the mounting anchor, but it would be more correct to point out that you want the mounting bracket to be installed at an angle that is compatible with the direction of pull on the webbing under full load. Bolt-in brackets should be able to pivot and align toward the direction of the load. This load angle will change as the driver's body shifts during an accident. Harnesses will stretch up to about 8 inches during a bad accident. If the mounting brackets do not rotate, the webbing will pinch in the bracket and tear. (This is called dumping.) This is the reason I prefer clip-in brackets as they self-align.

Much has been learned in the last 10 years about harness mounting and what used to fly past tech is no longer accepted as safe.

In each of those cases they're asking for straight down or 20 degrees back, which would put the attaching point under the seat and not serviceable/adjustable. Our seats are too low to get hardware or a wrench under them. That's why I put them in back of the seat. Whether they go straight down or backwards, it keeps the driver's torso from going forward under the lap belt. Crushed nads are better than ending up down there between the pedals. I've seen many sub belts mounted in front of the seat!
Agreed, making the anti-sub bracket pivot is a good idea to help prevent what you call "dumping." We call it the zipper effect. All the load is on one edge of the belt and just a few strands of webbing. Those fail and the load is transferred to the next few strands, which fail, and so on. If the webbing were able to pivot, the load would be across the entire width. Our angled-up brackets are not so tight that they won't pivot in the direction of the pulling force.
Agreed that harnesses will stretch during an impact, but the amount varies according to two things. 1. Nylon vs. Polyester webbing. 2. length of the webbing. It's a super common mistake to mount the shoulder harness triple bar too far from the mount on the cage. This creates TWO stretch zones in the webbing. One from the cage to the triple bar, and one from the triple bar to the cam lock. Even more concerning is when DE/TT guys use a 4 foot long shoulder harness to go over a harness bar and down to the rear seat mounts. I'm just sure they're going to kiss the steering wheel in a frontal.
Safety does keep evolving, and we try to keep up with the newest installs and equipment, though we don't retail much of it right now.
Please post links/references so all of us can continue learning 'cuz it sucks when one of our racing buddies gets hurt.

Perhaps folks might want to look at the Team Tech harness system. They make a 6 point that does not use sub belts bolted to anything. They go from the buckle around each leg and back up to the buckle, much like a climbing harness. There is no way you can submarine out of that harness. The buckle will stay where it is supposed to be, period!

This system eliminates the stretch issue, hardware accessibility issue, tearing at mounting points issue, etc. etc.

Sorry I do not have their web address available but they make quality harnesses. The downside is they are 2 year harnesses rather than 5 year but if you value your manly parts, you will like these harnesses.

Big Dog

tcomeau wrote:


I'm new on this forum, so for those that don't know me, I have been selling racing safety equipment for over 25 years and I was NASA's first safety tech inspector. My goal is for everyone to survive any altercations they might have out there. Yes, it sucks when anyone gets hurt, so we are on the same page there.

So, as a NASA tech inspector, my reaction to the above statement is that it doesn't matter if you "can't" do it or if it won't work as you would like--what you are doing is not per the NASA rules (unless you can prove to NASA tech that the seat belt manufacturer has the configuration in their instructions). Yes, I have seen 100's if not 1000's of poorly mounted harnesses. I have seen lots of cars with harnesses mounted in front of the seat. This used to be OK per the instructions of some belt manufacturers. I have installed some this way long ago when cars were racing with stock seats. It has since been proven to be ineffective in controling the position of the lap belt.

So, yes, this makes the mounting position of the sub strap under the seat. Sometimes the seat is so low in the car that it makes it very inconvenient to install, service, inspect and adjust. Sometimes you need to be innovative on how the belts are installed and use hardware that did not come with the belts. When mounting for seats that adjust (for different drivers in an enduro for instance), you need to compromise your install. But, to mount behind the seat will have two negative effects: Your straps will be longer and thus stretch more, and, your straps will be redirected by the seat and therefore have a extra load in this area creating a place to start a tear. Both of these problems you have pointed out are bad.

I encourage you to find a different way of mounting your sub straps. This is very important as the sub straps are the first to load in an accident.

A link to the Schroth install instructions is here: www.ioportracing.com/instructions/Competition_Instructions.pdf

As for Nylon vs. Polyester, you are correct. Nylon stretches more. There are different sides of this argument however. Stretching can be good. It dissipates energy over a longer period of time. It can be bad. It allows your body to travel further thus possible contact with your steering wheel, etc. There are other advantages and disadvantages such as how the material works with the adjusters. And, different manufacturers use different grades of the material. They all pass the tests, but some are easier to use than others. And then there is how they age. This is why the SFI has a 2-year dating period. They looked at a worst case scenario and it doesn't apply to 99% of us. Keep your harnesses out of the sun and rain and you will be OK for years.

As Big Dog points out, then there is the new harness from TeamTech. I had not seen this one before Jim pointed it out. Interesting, but I don't think I would be comfortable in this harness. Yes, it will keep you from submarining, but will it keep you down in your seat if you roll upside down? Yes, your nads are important, but my internal organs and head are more important. (I'm married, so I am not using the former anyway!) The lap belt by itself will not typically hold you down, but maybe this design will. I will have to hunt one down and check it out. Very expensive for an SFI belt, however. Might be just the ticket for those that "can't" mount the sub strap in the proper place.

For those that are going to check this harness out, the TeamTech sternum strap is not legal for NASA or SCCA club racing as you must be able to release the harnesses with one action. People have died in their burning car because a safety worker could not get the driver out after releasing their buckle due to the sturnum strap. And, if your harnesses are installed properly, you shouldn't need this device. You saw the 944 crash and burn video from the Nationals. Don't get stuck in your car--you may be unconcious and have to rely on someone else to get you out.